Two and a Half Men - 06x02
In this episode, Drew and Marie dive into Season 6, Episode 2 of Supernatural: Two and a Half Men. They discuss fatherhood and what it means for Sam, Dean, and Supernatural in general.
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Transcript
Welcome to Carrying Wayward a Supernatural podcast for fans who aren't ready to let go and newcomers to the series who are ready to jump in. I'm Marie Vigouroux.
Drew Shulman:And I'm Drew Shulman. In this episode, we're diving into Supernatural Season Six, episode two, Two and a Half Men, let's get this show on the road.
Marie Vigouroux:Before we start, we absolutely really wanted to thank everybody who has placed an order from our brand new Etsy store, especially now that we have like both our Impala pins and our Kansas Lied totes available on Etsy. It's been like super heartwarming to see people placing orders and supporting us through this process. So like, thank you so so so so so, so, so much.
Drew Shulman:There's something so visceral and good about seeing your product in the world. And like now that orders have come in and like shipments are going out. Like I just like, it's gonna be a day or two now, but like we're gonna go see a tweet or someone like, Oh, I got mine and I'm just gonna, like, explode.
Marie Vigouroux:I know! It's honestly so good when - whenever we get to see, like our stuff in the wild, you know, like, and I don't know, I love seeing pictures of people with them. So tag us in your photos, show us your Tiktok show us your Twitter, show us your tweets!
Drew Shulman:Do that tweeting thing!
Marie Vigouroux:Do the tweeting thing, please. So what did you think of the episode.
Drew Shulman:I see where we're going. And I know I'm gonna get there. But I feel like it's such a weird or reset since the Kripke era. It feels like we've been going like 100 miles an hour for the last like good chunk of the series. And now we're like, you know, doing like 20. It's like, it's a setup. I know, I know. But it just feels weird that like we're two episodes in and it still feels like setup. We'll get into it, we get a little bit more sprinkling, and I have some weird thoughts I have to share. But like -
Marie Vigouroux:It's a complete change of pace. And I think that that's also a way to kind of like represent the change of pace for the brothers. Right? So it's not only us that are feeling it, it's them too. Maybe I feel a little bit more forgiving of this early season six, I guess we'll see.
Drew Shulman:The end of this episode, which metmerits some talking about we'll get to, but I think like, does a lot to kind of give you like the next episode, we're speeding up again. Literally, we're getting into a better car that can go faster.
Marie Vigouroux:I mean, yes, absolutely. And how about to get us sped up, you give us a recap for this week
Drew Shulman:Count me down.
Marie Vigouroux:3-2-1, go!
Drew Shulman 2:42
Sam steals a baby. That's pretty much all we need. In reality, there's a little more to this, we get Dean moving the family kind of pulling a John there even the way he yells at Ben. Ooh, a lot of John vibes don't like this, and a whole episode talking about being parents, because we have, like I said, a bunch of people being murdered. And like Sam puts it all together. And he eventually manages to get there just as whatever it is, is stealing the baby, because clearly it's after the babies. And then Sam steals the baby. And I've said the baby a lot - too many times, this time not referring to the car, although Baby does appear at the end of the episode, which is exciting. Oh my god, I'm rambling. It turns out it's a shifter baby. And this is a whole plot how shifters have kids which is super creepy and messed up. But then we also get the more major reveal, which I think will be a bigger plot point this season, which is the idea of air quotes alphas kind of like the like origin of a creature. And we will hear a little more about Samuel and his catching things and I have theories. Time.
Marie Vigouroux:There you go.
Drew Shulman:The fact that this episode is just recap by Sam steals a baby.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah, absolutely. So when Sam is investigating, like the first case, Samuel tells him that even though it's not really a supernatural occurrence, and they're not too sure, right at that point, they could still like try and work the case or at least they should because it means that somebody somewhere is making and I quote baby stew, basically saying that like they still have like some sort of responsibility to the community to try and help if they can. And Sam just isn't interested in helping. So when Samuel tells him like "sometimes I wonder about you Sam" and he replies "yeah, sometimes I wonder about me too." Like that was really sus.
Drew Shulman:Yeah, I have thoughts about this like this episode has already started my gears going in the like crazy conspiracy mode.
Marie Vigouroux:We've seen Sam before helping people that he didn't have to help right so like this feels like a real departure from the SAM that we've come to know and love. Especially at the end of season five.
Drew Shulman:There was a line I think it was the season one finale where the inclination is like did Dean come back like felt like wholy himself or like is part of -
Marie Vigouroux:Oh, it was Sam. Like "are you sure what you brought back is all Sam" kind of thing like that's what yellow eyes tells. Or Alistair? Sorry.
Drew Shulman:I keep saying yellow eyes I can never get it right in my head.
Marie Vigouroux:Like they're just two bad guys. So yeah.
Drew Shulman:like, I think Sam is thinking that's - that of himself for some reason. Like I said crazy prediction in our predictions episode, maybe Lucifer's still living in his head somehow. And that's what's causing him to act weird.
Marie Vigouroux:We're introduced the concept of alphas, which is basically like the first of the line of like any monster, and in this case, it was the Alpha shapeshifter. And Samuel who boasts about like, knowing all kinds of hunting stuff just doesn't know if alphas can even be killed. So this is definitely going to be very important in the next couple of seasons.
Drew Shulman:Like I feel like so many myths and legends and I feel like werewolves is a weirdly specific one, vampires kind of does it too where there's like, the one who started everything and if you kill them and kind of like cures everybody, like you have to kill the head vampire or the original werewolf to break the curse. It's an interesting way to take this just you could have used a term that's less toxic.
Marie Vigouroux:Don't love the term but I will say that I think it makes sense for them to start exploring that because like, this show so far has been so much about family and lineage that like it would make sense to start exploring that and what that looks like for monsters.
Drew Shulman:Very true.
Marie Vigouroux:Dean asked Sam if he was using the baby as bait for the Alpha Shapeshifter and Sam swears that he just thought that Samuel and the other Campbell hunters would be the safest place for the baby.
Drew Shulman:So they're - here is this weird like Schrodinger's box you have for me sometimes where this line stuck out to me as like a weird moment, but I truly believe Sam, but the fact that it stands out so weirdly, and that it's being brought up here makes me feel like I shouldn't. That sounds like I'm suspicious of Sam but I think I'm more seeing this as Sam being suspicious of Samuel and the Campbell's. And kind of using it to test them or like check on them in a weird way. Like we're gonna find out that like yes, I brought it to them and used it as bait to lure out this thing that was hunting us because I wanted to see how Samuel would react to it because I have suspicions like this is a good guy Sam moment even if it's disguised as weird creepy, Sam.
Marie Vigouroux:I mean, one way or the other. He's using the baby as bait right so he's either using it to bait the Alpha Shapeshifter or he's using it to bait Samuel and the other hunters.
Drew Shulman:Yeah, either way, it's bad but that also kind of checks the box of Sam's weird vibe this season and even he's questioning himself.
Marie Vigouroux:Well, there you go. If you think that like he's currently sharing a body with Lucifer I feel like that would track.
Drew Shulman:Yeah, Lucifer would be kind of cool with you know, baby stew potential.
Marie Vigouroux:I mean, that was really Lilith's thing, but yeah.
Drew Shulman:True. True. True.
Marie Vigouroux:So that scene where they're having like that conversation about whether or not the baby was bait is followed by another scene of Samuel on the phone with someone and he's telling them that he couldn't catch the Alpha Shapeshifter but that he was going to work on something to get him to that person that he's on the phone with.
Drew Shulman:We already kind of had the hint from last episode that Samuel's doing something shady now we at least know it's being done for somebody else. In the vein of you know who I am our listeners know who I am. I have a crazy crackpot theory as to who was on that phone. I think it was Cas.
Marie Vigouroux:Do you think it was Cas?
Drew Shulman:Yep.
Marie Vigouroux:Okay, so but now you need to explain to me why Cas would want the Alpha shapeshifter.
Drew Shulman:I think I'm like pulling a lot of strings here. But I think the idea is that Cas up in heaven is kind of taking a like, like stop being passive, let's be more proactive approach to like keeping the earth safe. And getting rid of the alphas as the only way to do this. And they are not killable they have to be captured because whatever reason, and this is why Samuel, this is why Cas brought back Samuel and Sam, because he's now with like a higher rank of angel with his gift from God last season, that he was able to do this.
Marie Vigouroux:All right, well, I guess we'll find out soon. Or not.
Drew Shulman:I'm sure I'm wrong, but I can't wait. Story Time?
Marie Vigouroux:So today, our theme is fatherhood. So I think that we're all familiar with what fatherhood means. It's basically like the state of being a father. But I was kind of curious as to the etymology of father and what it has meant over time. So it actually comes from Latin and Greek pater. Again, I'm absolutely awful at pronouncing words from a language that I don't know. It's been transformed into the Old English faeder, faeder, D-E-R, which is basically - which was used to refer to the closest male ancestor, but it was also used as like any lineal male ancestor, comma, the Supreme Being. And it was also used as one who exercises parental care over another. And I personally find this interesting because like in the first definition, we're clearly talking about blood family. But in the second, we could be talking about found family as well.
Drew Shulman:Interesting.
Marie Vigouroux:So I think that it would be interesting for us to look at this episode through that lens, right? Like what is Sam and Dean's relationship to fatherhood, whether like their own or their experience from their father?
Drew Shulman:Again, like this is a perfect episode to have this conversation. It opens up an amazing moment in the episode we'll get to where the two of them express I think their idea of fatherhood in a different way.
Marie Vigouroux:Oh, yeah!
Drew Shulman:But also like, I think fatherhood as a general theme for Supernatural ever is a loaded subject, keeping this episode very in mind. Shall we start with Sam? I feel like we need to address the elephant in the room here. Sam has very little interest in being a parent, which is totally cool. I mean, I'm one of those. But like, the way he panics about a child and calls, Dean has a lot of little brother energy to it. But it also tells us a lot about Sam's current relationship with Samuel, that he'd go to Dean first, especially knowing that Dean's kind of out of the game and trying to like, help him stay out of the game. They were respecting his like being not a hunter anymore. But like, in a moment of panic, Sam immediately goes to because he needs someone father-like, and I mean, if this isn't the entire point of this show we've basically covered for the last two years of recording the show, Sam very much sees Dean as a father figure.
Marie Vigouroux:Right? Right. Right, right, completely agreed.
Drew Shulman:I think it's telling because as much as we've kind of seen the family dynamic in this group change and evolve in the last season, especially, he still chooses to go to Dean before Bobby.
Marie Vigouroux:So okay, so there's a few things that you're like pointing us to that I kind of want to expand on. Because the first thing is when you said that he doesn't want to be a father, which is accurate, completely agree with you. But I'd like to take it a bit further. In the Long Game, I described how he had no interest in working the case, if it's not supernatural, right, it takes Samuel to kind of like push him to work the case anyway. And, and also the fact that he finds out about the alarm company, for him to be able to continue working on the case. So if we think back, like to our definition of fatherhood, which is like to exercise parental care, in a broad sense, like, what does that reaction say about Sam's care and responsibility toward others?
Drew Shulman:I feel like his reaction to not wanting to take the case is very post season five Sam. But the not wanting to be a parent, I feel like is always been a trait for Sam. Like I've never seen Sam be parental or want to be. I mean, his interaction with children has been incredibly limited. But like, had this scene happened? seasons one through five, I totally would have believed it. Sam no wanting to be a parent.
Marie Vigouroux:I think I meant more about like his responsibility. Because like, oftentimes, like we talked about, like, by definition of being a hunter, he has a certain responsibility towards this community, right to take care of it and to exercise some kind of like, like to take care of the children who cannot defend themselves. I think here like even before we get to fatherhood, per se, and parenthood, per se, I find that this behavior that he's displaying, is kind of showing us that he it's not only that he doesn't want to be a parent, it's that he doesn't want to be responsible for anything. And this - and this is different from what we'd seen.
Drew Shulman:Yeah. And I think that's what makes it so jarring is because as much as I can believe that part of his character development of not wanting to be a parent, he always had an air of protection to him though. He always - he always had big protector energy, like you know, for a fact anytime Sam got a chance to play Dungeons and Dragons, he was a bloody Paladin, no arguments.
Marie Vigouroux:I certainly can't argue that one.
Drew Shulman:So the fact that one - like the no parenting, I kind of get it as someone who is not a parent does not plan to be one. I understand that. But the whole not wanting to investigate further because it's not supernatural is very not Sam. And I think just it goes to further compound this kind of new Sam we've been getting.
Marie Vigouroux:And the second thing that you mentioned is that Sam called Dean immediately when he needed help with the baby. And I also think that that makes a lot of sense, because one thing that I want to highlight that wasn't really discussed in this episode, was that Sam was six months old when Mary died. And we know that John like shut down with grief and started hunting almost immediately after, so who do you think took care of baby and toddler Sam?
Drew Shulman:Yeah, that makes perfect sense that like Bobby was definitely like the parent figure and I think -
Marie Vigouroux:Who took care of - who took care - who took care of baby Sam?!
Drew Shulman:You think that young he was already leaving Dean alone with Sam?
Marie Vigouroux:Absolutely I think so.
Drew Shulman:I don't know. I always got the vibe that like Bobby was kind of the de facto babysitter when he could be.
Marie Vigouroux:When he could be. Was that all the time? Was he always - was John really leaving him with the kids?
Drew Shulman:Why am I giving John the benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't leave a four year old child alone to watch out for a six month old baby? Yeah, no, you're you're very right. And you know, even but even that, to me is like, Bobby has become like, we keep saying he's better dad because he is. But the fact that in like the most like guttural reaction to like, holy crap, what do I do? Even though we've had this figure very much step in to fill John's shoes in a more like familial sense. When it comes down to it the most core being of Sam, it is Dean.
Marie Vigouroux:Absolutely.
Drew Shulman:Which also does kind of lead me to believe like, just it's worth bringing up, if only now and whether it's a thing or I'm just seeing something that is there, like a weird rift between Sam and Bobby, like since his return?
Marie Vigouroux:I don't know!
Drew Shulman:I don't know. There's something about like, the interaction last week, and then this week, where the whole naming the baby thing, not calling him. Like it just feels like there's something off between the two of them. I don't know if it's just say like, I'm picking up on made up stuff, because he just wasn't available to film this week, because he's on his episode. Or if it was actually something there. So putting pins in things.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah, for sure. I think that that's a really good question. Because the first time when - if I think back to like, the first time that I watched this episode, I remember like, literally talking to my computer screen being like, like, just take the frickin baby to Bobby, like, I don't understand what's going on. Because I also didn't trust Samuel in general, but also with a baby. And because that's also the thing like we know that Mary was raised a hunter, and that in her mind, that was the literal worst thing that a parent could do to their child. Clearly, like she carried a lot of trauma from like her own childhood, being raised by Samuel. And I think that like this question sort of ties back in with like, what Sam and Dean were discussing in their last scene together about Dean like questioning Sam about using the baby as bait.
Drew Shulman:You know what, like, the more we talk about it, the more it feels so weird that he brought the baby to Samuel over Bobby, or that his plan was to bring it to Samuel after all, but first to go see Dean. I mean, I guess definitely he didn't know as a shapeshifter yet so can kind of be excused, but still feels weird. And I think that more we talked about it, the more I feel like the baby was definitely bait for Samuel, not for the Alpha. But again, like I really wanna focus on the fatherhood aspects of Sam here. And like, it feels to me that Sam's idea of a positive male role model that he can actually look up to and learn from, really would have been Dean and has been this entire time, ultimately, like, it does make sense that he would be the person that he turns to it really, like, as much as I could argue the other cases, at the end of the day, it is blatantly obvious why it would be Dean. Because I think this is just such a like, primal is gonna be the word I want to go for here that like deep down the most like prime level. Sam, when he reverts to his childhood self, it is like, I don't know what to do. I am at like, an absolute loss: Dean. And I think we're also kind of seeing a side of Sam here who's kind of regretting letting Dean retire.
Marie Vigouroux:I mean, honestly, maybe like, maybe we're seeing that kind of regret there. But I think that, at the very least, he's definitely also seeing that, like what Dean is doing is just not working with Lisa and Ben. We'll move on to Dean in a minute. But like that conversation that he has, he and Sam have like comparing Dean's behavior to John like chef's kiss in so many ways, like I'm so excited to get into it.
Drew Shulman:Okay, so like, if we can move into Dean for a minute, though, there is so much to unpack. Yep. Okay, first, Dean as a father to Ben, there is there's a really dumb joke in Will and Grace that I've often gone back to as a reference bear with me, where Jack who don't have the show is very the like, the typical gay character from the early 90s on a TV show, gets turned on by a woman. And the joke is he's so gay. he's looped back to straight.
Marie Vigouroux:Oh -
Drew Shulman:the reason I bring it up is because I feel like what Dean has done here is he has tried to go so far the other direction of being a John, that he's looped back to being John. Like in his attempt to not do the things John does. He has like gone so far the other direction that he's now yelling at Ben and being like as asshole, as opposed to like, actually being a loving father, which is what he ultimately wants to be. But you know that entire scene in the garage where he yells at him about the gun like, like, I get it not wanting to drag Ben into this life. But there's a fine line between teaching and keeping the kid smart and safe versus Hey, go solo murder some queer ghost nuns for your 18th birthday. Like, he could have said to Ben like, hey, you know what, like, you understand what's going on. Like, at least like you're not coming into this at zero. Like you've seen a monster. You know what I do, more or less. Let me at least teach you, God forbid something happens, how to use this gun. I never want you to use it. It's going to remain locked up. You're never to touch it without me. But let me at least take you in the backyard and shoot at some cans. So I know that God forbid, I'm not here and you and your mom have to fight something off, you're not going in there blind. Like that's all it would have taken. Sorry, rant over.
Marie Vigouroux:Like we're seeing that Dean like so, so desperately wants to keep Ben and Lisa safe that like to use Sam's words, he's got them on lockdown. Why would Sam know that? He knows because John used to do it to them. And he knows that Dean is making them move because John used to do that to them. And I genuinely think that like until Sam pointed it out to him. Dean had not put two and two together. Like he even says like to defend himself like "it's temporary." And then Sam replies "dad always said it was temporary."
Drew Shulman:UGH -
Marie Vigouroux:I know, I know, honestly, punch to the gut like and Dean just looks absolutely devastated by this like, because I genuinely think that he had tried to do all of these things like and take all of the steps in order to not behave like John. But in doing that he ended up behaving just like him.
Drew Shulman:As much as I have just harped on it. I completely understand it, though. Like as much as I don't agree with it. I understand it.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah, because I was thinking about it. And I was like, wow, like even with different intentions, like the impact can be really the same. And then I asked myself the truly devastating question. Were the intentions truly any different. Because again, I am convinced that John was convinced that he was doing the best thing to keep his sons safe. I completely disagree with him. But he was convinced that he was doing the right thing. Like he damaged them and traumatized them in all sorts of ways in the process. But he really thought he was doing the right thing. Just like Dean. So the difference is that like once the behavior is pointed out to him, Dean says, "acting like a prison guard, that's not like me." Like he has this like, "that's not who I am" moment. And he's really able to modify his behavior. And I think that that is the difference between Dean and John.
Drew Shulman:Yes, I honestly, I think it was a few moments ago, as you were speaking, I had that realization that you then brought up in your your last line here, again, not a John apologist. But again, understanding that what John was doing was not explicitly let me harm these children and fuck them up. What John was doing was, I think this is the right thing to do to keep them safe and make sure they have a good life. Again, you're right, very wrong. But the intention was there. And I think that's the same thing with Dean here as the intention was one thing, the outcome was not good. But I mean, I'm just repeating you here but yes, his ability to see that and go, you're right. That's a dumb move. Let's reevaluate the scenario is what makes Dean a much stronger person than John.
Marie Vigouroux:I completely agree.
Drew Shulman:Continuing the unpacking of Dean. Dean is a parent to that baby. He's good at it. He, he likes it even, like say what you will with the whole alcohol on the finger thing I was raised with that it's a meme. It's a joke. It's a trope. Regardless, I swear, I almost expected Dean to suggest he and Lisa have a baby. If it did. If that line had come up the responsibilities would have been no, for obvious reasons. But I expected it. Dean just wants to nurture and provide for people you know, he does it now as a hunter and he keeps people he may never meet safe. But being directly involved in bettering life seems to make him so happy. It's why he ultimately can and we discussed this last week settled down the way he has, because he loves having Ben in his life, someone to protect and keep him grounded. Like I feel like the whole thing's played for laughs but like in the most sincere way, it is genuinely just someone who maybe has never said it out loud or like put the two and two together like he's done a few times this week. Is the realizing like, I can do this, I want to do this. This is something I should be doing.
Marie Vigouroux:You said something that was really important that we haven't talked about yet. You said it's played for laughs. And I just want to highlight that the reason why it's played for laughs is because again, in - I think this was 2010, around 2010, that this came out - in like, toxic patriarchal ideas for a man to be nurturing, is somehow effeminating, and somehow makes him weaker than he actually is. Which is why it was, quote, unquote, funny to see a big strong man like Dean be nurturing. I don't think that it was funny at all. I think it's absolutely normal for people to be nurturing whether they're men, women, non-binary folks, like it does not matter. Every human being has the capacity to be nurturing to some degree.
Drew Shulman:Yeah, that's the funniest thing as I'd like. So again, to be very clear, when I mentioned played for laughs, I was referring specifically to like the finger in the mouth of the booze thing. Because Dean as a father, just seems so regular and natural, like now that you say it, it's like, oh, that was definitely what they were going for. Because 2000 -whatever. It didn't even occur. To me. It's all right now, that was clearly the aim of the scene, was making him look emasculated and very feminine by being a mommy figure.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah, by being nurturing. The second that that men show any kind of nurturing qualities, it makes them look - and again, like in this particular structure, it makes them look weak. So anyway, moving on. One thing that I also want to highlight is that when it comes to the baby shifter, there is a parallel between him and Dean, or at least like how much Dean projects himself onto him, I think. And that was really apparent to me in the conversation that happens with Samuel and the cousins, because Dean is basically saying that he doesn't want the baby to be raised as a hunter. Because, again, much like Mary, he knows what it's like. And he knows that it's no life for a child. But he also reacts really strongly when Sam says that he's never seen a baby monster before. He replies like, "of course, it's not really a monster. I mean, it's still just a baby. It's not its fault. It's dad's a shifter." And like, if we replaced just a few words here, like we could be talking about Dean and John, like, it wasn't Dean's fault that his dad was a metaphorical monster. So it was just like emotional for me to see Dean advocating for this little kid the way that he wishes somebody had advocated for him when he was little.
Drew Shulman:That line stood out to me. Like as one of those moments where the show is really just being like, we understand some of our viewers don't catch all the subtle clues. Let's make this very, very blunt. Which again, I will always appreciate because it's worth it for people who might not catch the messages when they want to get their message across. But yeah, seeing Dean have that moment and really go from remember, this is the same Dean who said, like, if I didn't know you, I would hunt you like to his own brother not too long ago. So to have him now going, Yes, by all metrics, it's a monster by birth doesn't mean we should treat it as such until it, you know, makes its own decisions.
Marie Vigouroux:There you go.
Drew Shulman:Lastly, Dean as a father figure, in Lisa's eyes, I think is very important to discuss here. She understands what Dean is trying to do, and is so unbelievably understanding of his life that I really just want to say now it's gonna suck when they fridge her this season, because sorry, they're going to, she's been too good for the show to not ruin her. Back on track. She sees what Dean is trying to do and how he is struggling with trying to live both his lives. Dean wants to be there to protect them because he's become attached and truly does have feelings for both of them. But she knows he will never be truly himself or happy knowing there's work to be done beyond these walls. And Lisa, God bless Lisa is so damn strong, that she can live without him or anyone for that matter. And be her own independent woman and mother, which is just like, again for this show to do.
Marie Vigouroux:I think that Lisa is doing a really great job at reminding Dean of who he is. Like, she can see that he's stuck in between two worlds and two identities that he doesn't think are compatible. And she's like, well, I'm willing to give like this whole thing a try. In a way that's unconventional so that you can be free to be all of who you are Hunter and boyfriend, husband, father, whatever, right? Like however we want to see him to her and to her family. And like really like there are plenty of spouses who travel a lot for work like people who only come home to their families every few weeks or every few months, like it's not that unconventional, like, I just want to kind of put that out there. And also like, just as a reply to Lisa being strong, like she raised the Ben on her own her entire life basically or his entire life, I should say, Dean has only been there for like one year. So it's not like she's suddenly going to have to fend for herself, you know, like this was her normal state before. And so like she's perfectly capable of doing what she was doing before Dean showed up for one year.
Drew Shulman:Yeah, like, if anything, she's now maybe slightly better equipped, knowing more about what's out there and getting some like pro tips and having him come back semi regularly to be a part of their lives because he truly wants to be. You know, like, I feel like last week, the way he kind of said it was, well you force me on them, and now they're in danger, I have to sstay here out of like sort of obligation. But like, he wants to be there. And it's not out of some sort of guilt. It's out of love.
Marie Vigouroux:There's one thing that we haven't really addressed and it's the Bobby John thing. And I want to know what you think about it.
Drew Shulman:Okay, I think I have to look at twice first is in the moment, again, humor, but like the reality of when it - when the - when it comes to the brass tacks, who is your father, like Bobby and John are the obvious answers. But they obviously each have their own reason to say what they do. But I don't know something about. Again, this leads to my whole side theory that there's a rift between Sam and Bobby. Because I can't imagine a world in which Sam would genuinely feel like John is the father that he would then pull a name for, again, as much as we can, we could argue it's just a name. It's just a name. It's whatever. It says a lot. That was the first name he went to. And the fact that they differ, like Sorry, I'm rambling because I can't like be concise. But the feelings.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah, lots of feelings. Like it's not unusual for people to name their children after their parents, right? Not in every culture, but it does happen. And so Dean and Sam in that very, like on the spot moment, like both thought of like their father figure and Dean said, Bobby, while Sam said, John, and like you, when I first watched it, I was incredibly surprised to hear Sam say, John, because it just doesn't jive with what we had heard before. So it was a bit surprising.
Drew Shulman:It feels out of place because like, obviously, he wasn't gonna say Dean. But I could have also seen him say Bobby as well.
Marie Vigouroux:He could have said Samuel too.
Drew Shulman:I like, I can't imagine what it is about him that made him say, John, other than just like, the most raw, like, naming your child after a parent who has passed away and even then, like I still say, like, really Sam?
Marie Vigouroux:This episode was written by Adam Glass. This was his first one for supernatural and he's going to be on board until season nine. It was directed by John F Showalter, he has directed Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid, and he's going to be on board until season 15. So he's going to become like one of those well known names. And this episode originally aired on October 1, 2010.
Drew Shulman:Funny I feel like Showalter I've seen like the name enough times, I'm sure he's worked on other shows.
Marie Vigouroux:Oh, he's worked on a lot of other things like this man has done a lot of work his life.
Drew Shulman:But Adam Glass is new, I'm excited for new names always good.
Marie Vigouroux:So what was in the hundreds journal on October 1, 2010.
Drew Shulman:I never wanted kids, nothing to do with my lifestyle, though. If I did want them, I would still be childless, given the size of the van and the amount of time I spend cleaning blood and gore off my weapons, let alone the amount of artillery I own, and things I have to use it on are not something you want around kids. I just don't see the need to add more of us to this planet. It's so full, both with more of us and more things that want to eat us. But despite that, every time I meet a kid, we connect almost immediately, which I think says more about me than them really. I won't bore you with the details of my raising. I am who I am now. And I've reflected on myself enough to grow my own way. So how much of me is nature nurture or self healing? I can't say for sure. What I can say is, I'm whole as I am doing what I'm good at living a life I enjoy. And I feel proud and don't need more. Those families I've met along the way in any shape, size or configuration. I'm happy they found themselves in a way that works for them. Now, you all seem like a great family. And I respect the no killing people thing you've got going on here but can we find a better way of feeding your new young in the meantime, that doesn't involve me hanging upside down for a few hours a day? Seriously, this is a treat every hunter who wrongfully thought you need to be eradicated? Hate vampires!
Marie Vigouroux:Fun, fun fun.
Drew Shulman:What thoughts do you have this week?
Marie Vigouroux:I think we need to talk about fatherhood in supernatural like in this episode, but also in general. So the Kripke era was marked by absent and neglectful fathers. And I'm thinking specifically about John and God here. Interestingly, that theme carries through some of other of Kripke's work, but that's a whole other can of worms for another time. We also see John in relation like with abusive fathers like Dream a Little Dream of Me, when we noticed that Jeremy's dad had like similar characterization to John. And we also saw John like compared both with himself and with Samuel last season, in The Song Remains The Same when they go back in time. Basically, like John - young John can't believe that anybody would raise Sam and Dean and by extension, Mary, in the life of hunting, we also see some really wonderful people step in to become fathers particularly like Bobby with Sam and Dean, and like Dean with Ben and also like Dean with Sam had to put that up there.
Drew Shulman:Yep.
Marie Vigouroux:And now that we're entering the Gamble era, one of the first plotlines that we're introduced to is the Alphas, which are really like the first in their line and seem to have like some extra powers basically being the quote, unquote, supreme beings that we talked about earlier, when we defined fatherhood. Now, I'm going to offer a tiny little spoiler here, but all the alphas that we're going to meet are masc-presenting, meaning that they're presented on screen to be read as men or masculine. So basically, after spending five seasons dealing with like bloodlines and toxic fathers, we're jumping into yet another season of bloodlines and toxic fathers. So yeah, season six fun times.
Drew Shulman:I think this speaks volumes for the time and the era. And just you know, what also like writing what you - not, not writing what you know, for Sera, but like writing what you know about the show, you know, I kind of still am very intrigued by this, because I like the idea of now seeing it from the other side of like, not the brothers, but the things they're hunting, and they're dealing with toxic masculine role models.
Marie Vigouroux:We're here to get all kinds of parallels between the boys and brothers this this season. So let's just prepare ourselves for that.
Drew Shulman:I'm excited for it. I'm also excited to hear what our community has to say this week.
Marie Vigouroux:This week, we have a message from Mason and before we listen to it, we want to remind you to send us a three minute voicemail to respond to anything we discussed today. You can use the recording app on your phone and just email us the recording at carryingwayward@gmail.com We also want to remind you that Drew and I are going to be answering the question "How do you feel about Sam being so okay, giving the baby shifter to hunters to be raised in the life?" for our Roadhouse supporters on our Impala talk. Stay to the very end of the episode to hear a short clip.
Mason:Hello, Marie and Drew. My name is Mason. I use he/him pronouns. I sent in a voicemail a while back. And I really enjoyed the response that I got back to it. And it seems that I stumped a lot of you guys. And I thought I would make this voicemail easier to digest. It has there very little to no spoilers in it. So it's entirely okay for Drew to listen, because I'm gonna be talking about Jimmy Novak. I really enjoy giving attention to characters that have just as big effects on the series as a whole that aren't talked about as much and Jimmy is one of the biggest examples of that. I love The Rapture so much. It is one of my favorite episodes. I go back to rewatch it constantly. And I can't really pinpoint why. But I know a big part of it is how I feel about Jimmy. I'm going to start this little rant off with a theory that I have that is hopefully much easier to digest than the one I sent last time. And that theory is that Jimmy was actually still alive throughout the entirety of the series. You know, the show wants us to think that after Chuck snapped his fingers and cast disintegrated that Jimmy disintegrated and died along with them and then when Cas was brought back, Jimmy was brought back physically but not alive. Honestly, I don't believe that I really don't. My biggest piece of evidence comes directly from the rapture. When Jimmy is shot and Castiel uses Claire as a brief vessel to save him and the Winchesters Cas uses these words exactly. He says, "I want to make sure you understand, you won't die or age if this last year was painful for you, picture 100, 1000 more like it." So Castiel explicitly tells Jimmy that he's incapable of dying so long as he's his vessel. And while we don't know how much we can trust Cas' word by this point, especially since he was the same guy who told Jimmy that he would be totally righteous if he shoved his arm into a spaghetti pot. I just feel like he has more experience with this. He knows this routine already. This isn't his first rodeo. And he's telling Jimmy exactly point blank, you know, if you choose to take this life again, instead of your daughter, you will essentially live forever and that's not a good thing. And then it's explained in the show later on that when Chuck snaps and explodes Cas, I think it's in Lucifer Rising, but I'm not sure somewhere around that area. Jimmy died along with him. And then Cas is pretty much immediately brought back, but the show insists that Jimmy stays dead for the rest of the show. He's physically you know, holding Cas. Cas still looks like Jimmy. But the human soul or whatever inside him is gone. He's deceased. Newsflash, no one stays dead for good and Supernatural. I believe throughout all the other 11 seasons, Jimmy is very much alive. He is still experiencing being chained to a comet for the duration of 11 years to save his child from going through the same. And that's one of the biggest reasons that I love Jimmy Novak. He is the most devoted father, I believe there has ever been on this show. As soon as he's brought back from a year of being mentally absent, his first thought is to run to his family and check in on them and make sure they're okay. When he makes essentially a deal with Cas and agrees that Cas can use him as a vessel, his first concern is telling me my family will be okay. When his faith finally breaks, which is a huge moment for him, his main complaint is you promised my family would be okay. Jimmy is the devoted father that had Sam and Dean had from the beginning, none of the events of the show would have taken place. Jimmy would have never had his children hunting from a young age if he had any choice in it. Jimmy would never leave for days at a time leaving his oldest to steal food for his younger sibling. And this has an effect on Cas too. I feel like he learns just as much from Jimmy that he does the Winchesters he learns how to have a human capacity for emotion and empathy. He learns how to question his own morals and keep them firm and sound in place. He cares for - without going into spoilers, a couple of people that he's taken in essentially as a father figure. And he's just as devoted to a lot of things as Jimmy was to the people he cares about, to the Winchesters, to his own morals, to keeping the world safe, to keeping humanity safe. There's a lot to be said about how Jimmy is important to all 15 seasons of the show. And I don't feel like many people really talk about it because all he's really given is like one and a quarter of an episode. I watch The Rapture all of the time. And it mentally breaks me a little bit more every time I watch it because Jimmy did not deserve to have the experience of being chained to a comet for such a long period of time, but he did it to save his children. And Cas would do the exact same thing. It's the kind of self sacrificing that we see from pretty much everyone on the show. But it comes from a place of genuine empathy and care rather than with the Winchesters, it's more of self insecurity and not really caring whether you live or die. So Jimmy needs a lot more appreciation in this fandom, and I am very excited to hear what you guys have to say about it. Thank you so much for listening, loving the podcast so much. It is just a joy to listen to all these different interesting topics being brought up. I'm so glad to be a part of it. Thank you. This is a long voicemail. But I'm excited to hear what you have to say.
Drew Shulman:Mason, thank you for a wonderful voicemail. I'm going to assume the usual rule that Mary does not pre plan which of these goes with, with what episode? What are the odds we get an amazing voicemail about fatherhood on this? I mean, really like this some sort of weird stars aligned, anything going on here?
Marie Vigouroux:I think I'm a witch.
Drew Shulman:I mean, I thought you were. I don't know if I dismiss it. If it was said already up to the point that we're at that Jimmy is air quotes not there anymore.
Marie Vigouroux:No, it hasn't been said, but we're gonna find out like in the next couple of seasons.
Drew Shulman:Like I said, I don't think it makes a big deal. I think they kind of dropped him as like a concept for the most part. It's just a way of kind of covering their butts from the sounds of it. But like all of this to really like point out what he's done for his family and like how far he would go. And I know you say that Cas would do the same thing. I feel like Dean would also do the same thing. And I think that's what makes them so perfect together. Is they both would just go to the ends of the earth for the for the people they care for. But yeah, you know what, like, I am with you I stan Jimmy Novak like what an amazing person.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah, Mason, thank you so much, honestly, for this really thoughtful voicemail. I had never really thought of like how Jimmy would have affected Cas except in the, in the very narrow context that we looked at when we looked at the famine episode. Yeah, I definitely see the sacrifice. I certainly see the fatherhood. Like it just gave me kind of a whole new appreciation for Jimmy and his impact on Cas throughout, you know, however long he was there, I think that it's - it's a really interesting thought process to think about, okay, well, what if Jimmy had been there for the entire time? Or what if Jimmy was there? Like what's, what kind of things has he been living through this entire time and the whole fatherhood thing is just really uncanny. So yeah, thank you so much for bringing this to our attention. I really appreciate it.
Drew Shulman:Yeah, you know what I think it's important to remember the like, oft-forgotten less talked about characters on the show, and like the impact they can have. It- You know what - and thanks for reminding me, Mary, it did come up in my thoughts as we were listening, that like the last time we really brought up Jimmy was the idea that like, his love for like burgers was leaking through Cas and like helping Cas become more human, that like it makes sense that his love for his daughter and like his love for his loved ones would leak through and help Cas learn to love.
Marie Vigouroux:Absolutely. There you go. Like if one thing leaks through, then other things must leak through as well. And so like, it kind of gives me pause to think like, Okay, well, what, what are the things that have leaked through from Jimmy so I think that that's like such a, it's just feels very soft, like a very soft thing to think about in like a really warm way. I don't know why like this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
Drew Shulman:Well, while we're feeling all warm and fuzzy, shall we go reflect and see our call to action this week.
Marie Vigouroux:So Drew any reflections for this week?
Drew Shulman:I have no interest in being a father. And that is okay. I'm happy being me. And no social construct or expectations will change that. I have a great relationship with my father and my father in law, and I can share funny stories about them. And you know what, I am happy with who I am. But I'm also very happy having friends with children and my brother who's thinking about having kids soon and I have friends who are having their first and second kids now that I get to be a part of their life and support them in my own way and spoil them and talk about Pokemon with them. And you my dear what about you this week?
Marie Vigouroux:So I'm - I'm currently in the process of like, kind of breaking down a lot of gender binaries in my life and like, I guess this episode is kind of making me feel called to remind myself that fatherhood like is an energy or a vibe, like not necessarily something that's exclusive to men. You know, a lot of what people describe as like motherhood, I tend to describe as parenthood which in my mind is kind of like an amalgam of the binaries. And basically like my take home message is that Daddy is a state of mind.
Drew Shulman:If I could just say Mary you give off the most dad energy.
Marie Vigouroux:Thank you.
Drew Shulman:You've been listening to Carrying Wayward a Supernatural podcast produced by Rachel Castellano, hosted by Marie Vigouroux and myself Drew Shulman. Thank you to everyone supporting us on Ko-Fi or Patreon and an extra thank you to our bunker supporters Kateera, Elle, and Jeremiah-Thomas.
Marie Vigouroux:This week, we'd like to thank Mason for his message. You can find the links to all our social media and our merch store at carryingwayward.com And don't forget to leave us a rating and a review wherever you listen to us.
Drew Shulman:If you like Carrying Wayward and you'd like to support us in our project to go through all 15 seasons of Supernatural you can support us through Ko-Fi or Patreon. And you can find those links at carryingwayward.com
Marie Vigouroux:Carry on our Wayward Friends!
Marie Vigouroux:How do we feel about Sam being so okay giving the baby shifter to hunters to be raised in the life? How do we feel?
Drew Shulman:I mean, obviously, I'm torn because we both know who talked about it so much that being raised in the life of hunters in this way is kind of a we all agree is a bad thing.
Marie Vigouroux:I think - I think that's yeah.
Drew Shulman:But I think there is kind of a double standard here.
Marie Vigouroux:Okay, I'm listening.
