Pilot - 01x01
In this episode, Drew and Marie dive into Season 1, Episode 1 of Supernatural: Pilot. They discuss the episode that started an epic 15-year journey and what TV was like back in 2005.
Transcript
Welcome to Carrying Wayward a Supernatural podcast for fans who aren't ready to let go and newcomers to this series who are ready to jump in. I'm Marie Vigouroux.
Drew Shulman:And I'm Drew Shulman. In this episode, we're diving into Supernatural Season One episode one: Pilot. Let's get this show on the road.
Drew Shulman:So, before we get started, how about we tell our listeners who we are? Mary, I will ask you to go first.
Marie Vigouroux:Well, thank you. That's very chivalrous of you. I appreciate that. So let's start with the important things. My passion is dialogue. So that means trying to understand something, whether that's a topic, an issue, a book, a movie, or in this case, a TV show, by discussing it with others and merging our perspectives to get a good, deep understanding of whatever it is that we're discussing. I mean, honestly, I just really love it when people walk away from a conversation with like a better, or even a different understanding of the topic than they did before. Right. And luckily, that's actually my job. I'm so lucky. I'm like a master's students at McGill University. And my thesis project is about understanding the experiences of teenage girls living with scoliosis, through dialogue and conversation. So, I mean, I guess in a way, I'm getting a degree in how to talk to people. Which I think is gonna come in handy for this podcast, I think. I'm really looking forward to trying to better understand each episode of Supernatural, but also the series as a whole, frankly, and I mean, who better to discuss this with then you Drew.
Drew Shulman:Ah, you're too kind to me. But I will, as I am following your lead in jumping into the show, I will do the same with the formatting for how I will introduce myself. My passion is lore and mythology. I mean, whether I'm jumping into a new TV show or picking up a video game I've been playing for way too many years, the thing that keeps me invested the reason I keep coming back to these shows and movies and podcasts, and anything content wise, is an amazing narrative woven by these brilliant characters in these incredible worlds they put together. I mean a good show is good. But a good show with a universe full of history, secrets, legends, lore myths is just phenomenal.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah.
Drew Shulman:I myself, didn't finish school. But I did study film, photography and radio, which has led me to a life of both watching and working in media, from multiple angles. If I may, I've been - I am a voice actor. I've hosted a few other small productions and podcasts before this one. I've worked on a few student films both in front of and behind the camera. And on the editing side in the few cases, I'm in my wheelhouse here, working on a project like this really is something I love doing. It's putting my passions, my abilities and my skills on the right place. And I really am looking forward to diving into a show that I've kind of know a bit about, but really only on a very surface level. And I hear people talk about it with such passion and like fervor. So for me, I really want to jump in and hope to have - bring other people with me, I have other people jump into this podcast and go, Hey, I'm ready to start a new show, too. And follow along with the two of us.
Marie Vigouroux:That's so exciting. Honestly, I'm really excited to get to this, Drew, thank you so much for like going on this journey with me.
Drew Shulman:Well, I'm glad I could be following you along. And may I ask, Would you like to explain what this podcast is about?
Marie Vigouroux:Sure. So with Supernatural ending this year, I found myself wishing that I could get that feeling again of watching the series for the first time. And after speaking with you, I realized that you'd never actually watch the series fully. And so I thought that it could be fun to start a podcast to record our adventure in rewatching Supernatural for me and watching it for the first time for you. Now, every week, we're gonna go over one episode of Supernatural and we're going to do this in two steps. First, we're going to look at the story as sacred, you know, the gospel of the Winchesters, if you may, and that means we're going to treat the characters as if they're not characters written by flawed people, but real people themselves. So we'll dive into the relationships of the show and personal growth and the decisions, my God, decisions on this show! For example, that's when we would be talking about Dean's relationship with women, the boys' relationship with their parents and Bobby or even like the evolution of Crowley's character for example. Step two, we're going to be looking at the episode more critically and discuss the writers, the producers, the actors and even the network's decisions to air the show as it is, as the products that it has become through their work. And this is really where we get to wonder if the way that Dean treats women in the early seasons is really a reflection of Dean or a reflection of like, what the society considers appropriate. And then, of course, at the end Drew your favorite part, we make a deal at the crossroads. And this is where we basically wish for something. And since we can't really exchange it for our soul, you know, we'll offer up something else from the episode in return.
Drew Shulman:So with that out of the way, I wanted to explain the title of the show, because I feel like it is a bit of a pun based on as anyone who's watched the show before, and even as myself not having watched the show in its entirety, only seeing bits here and there. Even I'm aware of this constant use of the song Carry on my Wayward Son for their season recaps. We thought it kind of fit us very well. Mary here, as she said, has watched the show this point I've - Do you know how it ends you've watched through exactly?
Marie Vigouroux:Um, nope! I've lost count.
Drew Shulman:Yeah. Which to me means probably four to seven times, at least at this point. That's why we're carrying on: Mary has seen this show many times. And this is for her just another watch through with a fun new twist on it. And I - I am a wayward son. I am someone who by all intents and purpose should love the show I adore Monster of the Week type shows. I'm a huge fan of other shows in the same genre like Buffy. I love supernatural as a subject. I just love, mythology and creatures and lore. And I was also a really big Gilmore Girls fan. I really liked Dean slash Sam. So really, there should be no reason why I didn't watch the show up until now, except that for some reason, it kind of didn't sit well with me partway through. And even in my first watch, I never saw all of it. So I'm a wayward son returning to the rightful path of watching the show properly. So this gives us a chance to look at the show, as Mary said, through both her eyes, someone who's seen the whole show and knows what's coming. And myself, someone who I, as you will see today, in our discussion of the first episode, I recall a lot of little things, but was reminded so quickly of why I did get into it in the first place. And as we get further in, we'll obviously discuss why I fell out of love with it later on. And I believe it is also worth mentioning that as we keep saying Mary has seen all of it up to this point. That's an important thing, because the show is not done yet.
Marie Vigouroux:The show is not done yet. But it is ending. And at the point where we are currently recording this podcast episode. There are four episodes left to air in the series before the end. And so definitely a lot of emotions here. And, and that was certainly a catalyst for me to want to start this podcast so that the adventure and the story the saga and the brothers can live on.
Drew Shulman:So tell me a bit more about that.
Marie Vigouroux:Sure. I mean, so like I said, I knew that Supernatural was ending soon, obviously. And I was thinking of ways to keep it alive in my own life. I mean, so I've been watching this show for the last four years, I was introduced to it by our producer extraordinaire Rachel, who has been watching it from the very beginning from Season 1, 15 years ago. And I mean, this show really quickly became a very important part of my life. I ended up contacting you because I knew that you had worked on podcasts before and I knew that I needed that expertise in order to be able to put out a podcast that would be interesting. And I also knew that you hadn't seen the entire series but that you would really give it the care and attention that it really deserved. And so I honestly seeing you watch it for the first time, I knew that that would be the closest thing that I could get to actually watching it for the first time myself. Yeah and so then pretty quickly after that our producer Rachel jumped on board and well I mean look at us here we are.
Drew Shulman:Here we are. Yeah so this gives us a very nice way to send the show off so with with our with our intro are slightly longer than normal intro we will not be repeating this every episode We figure if you're listening to episode two and beyond, you've probably listened to Episode One. If not. I always hear podcast talking about fans getting on the show with a weird episode and I'm like, How do you do that? I need to start at the beginning. But that's a story for another day. Let's get into our episode one recap.
Marie Vigouroux:All right, Drew! How about you get us started with our very first recap.
Drew Shulman:So we start with an adorable baby, an adorable family. A I'm trying to do this quick becasue I'm on a timer. Very wholesome life everything seems very normal. Nothing that like leads you to think there's something more going on here. Mom wakes up the middle of the night sees their father with Sam in the in the crib, goes downstairs realizes wait if Sam's down - if Dad is downstairs on the couch watching TV half asleep than who was with my baby, and yeah, I will admit even as someone who loves a good horror movie like that gives you chills those moments of like character realization you really connect to them.
Marie Vigouroux:Full chills.
Drew Shulman:Oh yeah. And like I like all again I admit as you heard my recap, like I know what's coming like I knew like Oh, right. That's totally not that up there and it still gives you chills. Anyways, we hear screaming dad runs upstairs. I'm gonna learn his name eventually as I keep saying dad.
Marie Vigouroux:John.
Drew Shulman:John, thank you my God. I'm terrible with names. It'll take a while. But John runs upstairs finds - I remember this one. Baby totally fine, Baby Sam, but something is dripping on it on his pillow. What could it be? I guess we'll look up at the ceiling. Oh, Hi, Mary. Yeah, you shouldn't be on the ceiling. That's a bad thing. It seems not natural. You might even call it supernatural. I forget - remind me now if I'm forgetting does she say something before she burst into flames?
Marie Vigouroux:She does not.
Drew Shulman:Okay, I don't know why I had a memory of her saying something -
Marie Vigouroux:Well -
Drew Shulman:Oh?
Marie Vigouroux:Oh!
Marie Vigouroux:No, no, go ahead. Go ahead!
Drew Shulman:Don't spoil but okay. Now I'm now - I'm intrigued. But yes, she bursts into flames the walls behind her tend to our whole house goes up. John hands Sam to Dean says run, Dean as a good boy just does. And then John comes out after them. So obviously he stayed in the house for something. I mean, I assume we're supposed to believe it's to try to save his wife. But there's that part of me that's like, is that all he was doing in the house before he ran away? And then we kind of cut to today to modern day. And we have oh, my God is going to be so tough. As a Gilmore Guys fan. I'm going to keep saying Sam and Dean wrong. We have Sam. Oh my God it's gonna be so bad. We have Sam, who is trying to live a normal life with his girlfriend Jess. And things are seeming fine until someone breaks into his house. Surprise it's brother Dean, who has to get some help because dad has gone missing on a and I'm doing air quotes here hunting trip, which I mean technically is right. He is hunting, just not in the traditional sense. Again, just got to speed things along. Sam was convinced by Dean to go and do this but get back by Monday because he has to interview for law school. They go on this nice little brotherly road trip we get some cute bonding we got a lot of exposition as I said, and we get our first monster of the week, a lady in white a traditional ghostly figure usually the ghost of a woman scorned. Again, we see her taking revenge and in this case we learn on men who were unfaithful. Even if as I said, it's a little cheating if she forces herself onto the man, thus making them unfaithful, thus giving her the right to kill them. That's a little like police policing the police which is a whole other story. But we do get our first view of the brothers in action as hunters as hunting down as ghost. We get a lot of jargon that is very easy to understand of like, oh well dad would have clearly figured this out so he would have clearly burned to the body because that's the thing we all know to do in this situation, giving us a non expositional way of showing that there is some professionalism to this we then learn that dad has gone missing but left behind his journal which he would never leave behind, including some coordinates for the brothers to follow. Ultimately we do defeat the woman in white we get this creepy wet ghost children like just really brought - she is dragged back - sorry you're having fun with this?
Drew Shulman:Yeah, she is - she's literally dragged back to hell by her ghost children that she allegedly murdered or that we learned she did murder. But we then finally get the brothers. You know that brotherly moment of like yay, we love each other. We did good. We're gonna go keep finding dad and then you know Sam says the Dean I can't come with you. I gotta go home. I have a loving girlfriend who means everything to me and nothing had ever happened to her because she's perfect. Only to go home and find her stuck on the ceiling just like mom and burst into flames just like mom. Luckily Dean I guess wasn't far or was waiting outside for some reason and was able to run in and save him. And I really do love this shot because I think it says so much as an end of the episode but just Sam going over the trunk and getting like the gear setup because he's like, Oh, no, no, this is personal more so than it already was. We're on this case, let's go find out. Let's figure out what the hell's going on.
Marie Vigouroux:Wow!
Marie Vigouroux:That is my recap.
Marie Vigouroux:That was so good!
Drew Shulman:I realized I wanted the recap to be like, maybe 30 seconds to a minute, I think I went for five minutes?
Marie Vigouroux:Well, next time, how about we give you like a little challenge to do it in under three minutes about that.
Drew Shulman:That's it. Plus, I think we're also introducing the main characters in the main plot of the show, it's probably a bit easier.
Marie Vigouroux:Agreed. You know what, at the end of the day, like we're starting this. So let's take more time today. So I agree with that. I like this.
Drew Shulman:Good, good. Good.
Marie Vigouroux:All right.
Drew Shulman:So I want to introduce our next sec. Next segment. So after my rambly recaps, I would like Mary here to give us a long game view. Did I miss anything? Are there other things you want to bring to my attention to whether as foreshadowing as I mentioned in my recorded recap, or things I may have missed that are of importance?
Marie Vigouroux:Well, so for this particular one, I think you did a really wonderful job.
Drew Shulman:Thank you,
Marie Vigouroux:Knowing especially I mean, you knew what was going to happen. So you, you really hit on all of the important points. We'll talk about that a little bit later. But this is this is the foundation, right? This is the foundational moment of the series. And so it's important to spend time really looking at that one, when it comes to the, you know, the Winchester gospel, as it will one day be known or be referred to.
Drew Shulman:And this is how we want to look at the show we, as we've made it clear, we want to really examine the show as a show and not so much as a piece of content created by human beings live in our world. So I like the gospel, the Winchester gospel, I kind of like that as a term for the show, in the sense to kind of divide it further from being just a television experience.
Marie Vigouroux:Yes, exactly. So there's just three little points that I'd like to add to that particular recap.
Drew Shulman:Please!
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah, for sure. So it's something that when the brothers are actually just meeting again, you know, after fighting, because that's what they do. Dean says, oh, you know, dad is missing. And then Sam goes, Oh, he's working overtime on Miller time. He'll be back soon. And that seems like a totally normal thing for them. Right. So I think that this paints John as someone who was absent during their childhood, because they're used to this - it's like, this is not even a - Dean doesn't even contend that point. He just says dad's on a hunting trip. And that's when the tone changes.
Drew Shulman:True. And it does also kind of go back to a point that Sam does make at some point with Dean I forget where exactly, but he makes the comment of like, I told that I was afraid of being in my closet and he gave me a gun.
Marie Vigouroux:He gave me a 0.45, yeah.
Drew Shulman:Yes. And again, I think again, it - to your point, it does paint a picture of John being both sides of the like, he wasn't the perfect father, because like he said, I would have wanted a father just to say don't be afraid of the dark. Just the pleasantries you expect him a father of like, everything will be okay, pat on the back. Not, Oh, yeah, it's probably this demon. Here's some salt. Here's a gun. Here's how to hunt like, ultimately preparing them for the life that he expects them to have.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah.
Drew Shulman:But not the life you really want when you're a child.
Marie Vigouroux:Absolutely. And you know, this actually ties in well, with the second point that I was going to make, because just a little further in that particular conversation, when they're - when they're leaving, and they're talking, Sam asked Dean, so dad let you go on a hunting trip alone. And then dean looks up at him and goes, dude, I'm 26. So -
Drew Shulman:They're babies!
Marie Vigouroux:I know. I know. They're such babies! I mean, they're, yeah - which and that puts that quote, sort of paints John has over protective that he doesn't let the boys go on hunting trips alone, even though he has prepared them their entire childhood and teenage years for this life. So that to me shows that John really has like, two sides to him that aren't necessarily coherent with one another. So I don't know if there's something you think about that.
Drew Shulman:Yeah, I think it also goes back to like, you're right, it connects well, is there is kind of that dichotomy of he is a good father in that he's protective. He wants to like arm his kids with literal arms and knowledge, and not just send them off into the world blindly like every other child who just goes like, Oh, I'm afraid of the darkest, darkest scary, he is giving them yes, there's more to the world than what you see. Here's how to defend yourselves. But then there's also that level of like, they're still - I mean like, back then at least - they're still children, they should still be given the life of a child. There still needs to be some level of as we see like, even just wven the brothers: the one totally accepting it, becoming a demon hunter and just living like dad and then the other, trying to have a normal life trying to get away from all that and get the life he couldn't have growing up with a father like John.
Marie Vigouroux:Absolutely.
Drew Shulman:So we see the two different sides of John and the way both sides affected both each kid.
Marie Vigouroux:Yes. You know, speaking of that normal life, this is where - this is also the episode where they hint at what they think of what - what a normal life looks like, right, which is what Sam is living. So that's, you know, the normal apple pie life is sort of defined as somebody who isn't aware of the things in the dark, right, so there's that blissful, unawareness, but also that incredible vulnerability to the things that do live in the dark. Right. So even the normal apple pie life as they start defining it in this episode, but also in later seasons. It's a very vulnerable life as they see it.
Drew Shulman:It's true. You think about like, let's assume we - they grew up the lives that most people tend to probably grew up a normal life where dad says, yes, it's nothing to be afraid of look, the closet's empty, and it actually is empty. But we've now seen even in this first episode, over how many years this Spectre has been killing off men, you know, we live in a world where in this world, and it's very clear, there are things that go bump in the night, and they do exist. And either they're explained away, or they are just assumed to be regular murders, which is already a weird sentence. But there there is still danger in it.
Marie Vigouroux:Absolutely. Absolutely.
Drew Shulman:So I think that recaps quite well, the show. And I do thank you bring up those points, they were good talking points. And I'm glad we got them up. But I know you wanted to, and this will be a big part of our show going forward is really discussed the brothers themselves.
Marie Vigouroux:Absolutely.
Drew Shulman:So so please take it away.
Marie Vigouroux:Thank you. So in this particular segment, what we would like to do is really look at at the story as if it were mythology. So what if we were to have found these episodes, you know, in a black box somewhere, and finding out about Sam and Dean Winchester, and forgetting for a second that this is a TV show that was written and produced by flawed human beings? And and really focus on the actual story. And the characters. Are you with me for that?
Drew Shulman:Yeah, I think that's the best way to look at it. I really like just, let's remove our world aspect of it and really view their world as their world.
Marie Vigouroux:Absolutely. When I watched the pilot, I mean, to me, the pilot is really about commitment, right? There's John's commitments to finding what killed Mary Sam's commitment to a normal life, whatever that means, whatever, however, he defines it. And then subsequently, you know, at the end of the episode, to a commitment to finding what killed Jessica and his mom. And we also see Dean's commitment, which is to his family, particularly to his dad at this point. And the job, you know, as they call it, the hunting, hunting supernatural things. And finally, we start seeing that commitment that the brothers have towards each other. I mean, it's pretty clear when it comes to Dean because he's the one who literally saved his brother from the fire twice, right in this particular episode. But we also see for Sam, who is still willing to go and help his brother find his dad, even despite the fact that he has a very important interview the following Monday.
Drew Shulman:Exactly. There is a level of I think it's something I believe we see a lot more on the show. And hopefully I'm not wrong in saying this, but like family is a very important aspect to them.
Marie Vigouroux:Yes.
Drew Shulman:And it shows like, how many people do you think you would turn around and say, Hey, I'm gonna risk missing this big job interview, I'm gonna miss this chance at a normal life to go on this crazy adventure. Like, yeah, it's to check on their father. But even you see, Dean, sorry, you see Sam initially arguing away that like, it's probably fine. He's probably just gone a little longer than usual. He does that a lot. You know, you can go do this yourself. It's not that crazy. Like even the phone call that Dean receives from his father with the slow down audio, and we clearly hear the women and white saying I can't go home. It doesn't really end even after seeing the creature. It doesn't feel like anything more supernatural than normal. But still, this is my brother, this is my father. I need to be committed to them. I have to help them.
Marie Vigouroux:Absolutely. And I mean, at the end of the day, the pilot is where this is the episode that starts at all it sets everything in motion, or so we are led to believe right?
Drew Shulman:Oh?
Marie Vigouroux:Yes. We'll see in later episodes and later seasons, what truly sets off this saga and it's not actually that moment.
Drew Shulman:Oh!
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah, but it does set the tone for the series when it comes to like free will versus destiny and prophecy. Right. Like we start thinking about that, like, was Mary meant to die in that fire? Anyway, food for thought for later?
Drew Shulman:Oh, I am intrigued. I am now going to be looking for any hint as like, I'm sure with more like, end of Season episodes, I'll see more. But like I'm excited now I'm excited.
Marie Vigouroux:I'd like to focus in on one moment with you.
Drew Shulman:Please.
Marie Vigouroux:Yes. So when do you runs into some injustice bedroom. And look, it's the first time that he actually sees what happened to his mom. Right? Because until then-
Drew Shulman:Oh, true! Yeah!
Marie Vigouroux:Right. He had only heard whatever John told them. And we don't know what John told them. We can only make assumptions. And you know, that whole comment about overtime on Miller time sort of allows you a hint into their lives that maybe alcohol was very much present for John during their childhood. And so you don't know what John would have said sober versus what he would have said while - while drinking. So you don't really know what Dean knows. Until he sees Jess burning on the ceiling.
Drew Shulman:That's a brilliant observation. I had not even put that together. You're right. Because he gets handed Sam literally in the hallway outside. He doesn't you can barely see the flames from outside.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah.
Drew Shulman:And then true. Everything at this point has been hearsay. Like, yes, there's been this very clear getting vengeance for the thing that their mother away. And we clearly see Dean's connection to his mother when they get into the fight on the bridge. But yeah, you're right. This is the first time he's seeing it in action.
Marie Vigouroux:Absolutely.
Drew Shulman:And I as much as Sam was present in the room when it happened. He was so young. How much does he remember? But I mean, he clearly grew up hearing the same stories as dean, because obviously, they were still together as kids up until I'm gonna guess probably College. We'll learn more about that later. Or you can fill me in if it's not that important. I mean, yeah, this is the first time that either of them are really getting to see it firsthand, versus just, you know, fuzzy memory from when you were like, Sam, like, what, a few months old, maybe three weeks old, maybe when this took place
Marie Vigouroux:Six months old.
Drew Shulman:Six months old.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah.
Drew Shulman:That sounds that sounds like you knew that way too quickly. And it's gonna be irrelevant, but
Marie Vigouroux:It is going to be relevant. You know, like, I'm not gonna spoil things intentionally for you. But certainly like when there's little things like that. I'll definitely speak up.
Drew Shulman:Oh, yeah, I called it out during my recording. There's always foreshadowing This is the kind of show that is just like, drenched in foreshadowing. And I think that's a great thing.
Marie Vigouroux:I know. I know. I think that's partly what makes it so good. Now, there's one other thing that I'd like to talk about with you when it comes to the brothers and really looking at at the story as - as mythology. Because what do you make of the fact that their very first monster back together, you know, after a few years apart, is a woman in white, because when we think about it, when Mary died, she was wearing a white gown. And so I'm, I'm wondering the significance of having a woman in white as their first monster of the week.
Drew Shulman:So that is very interesting. You bring it up. And I will admit, I think as you were saying that I was scrolling through our notes, and I just saw the I can never go home highlighted. And it's interesting because one of my small complaints about this episode was in the way they tackle the woman in white and the actual legends of woman and white, they're very accurate. It is very often a woman scorned, usually by a cheating husband. The legends are often talking about killing their own children and then haunting similar men. But we do have that interaction between Sam and the widowed husband who I - and again, I it's all through like body language and just conversation. It almost feels like he was not unfaithful, that she might have been the one who was unfaithful, which is a whole other problem for the show to get into. But it really feels like the way he responded like, he asks, did you have a happy marriage? And he actively shakes his head? No, but says yes, with a shaky voice. Like, clearly, they don't have a happy marriage. But it almost feels like you're trying to paint it in the sense of like, it wasn't his fault. It was an unhappy marriage. It was more on her.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah, I mean, we can definitely get into that a bit more in our in our later segment. I certainly have things to say about that.
Drew Shulman:Oh, yeah. As I think I use the word chauvinist pig at least twice in my recording. But I think what in this case where I don't want to say it's excusable to make her the villain it is - it's almost like a riding crutch to help us get to the idea of her not wanting to go home because why would - like it's that not wanting to go home park they really want to drive home. It's the brothers themselves are afraid of going back to a normal life because of what they've seen and even further when they actually see it firsthand. It's - That is Sam's moment to go. I'm leaving home, I can go back to a normal life. This is the life for me this supernatural life.
Marie Vigouroux:Oh, Drew, I love that. I really do. I mean, I saw it a tad differently. But I really love this interpretation. Frankly, it makes so much sense
Drew Shulman:I would like to hear your interpretations, please.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah. Well, so mine comes with a little bit more hindsight, you know, with the with what what I know happens in the later seasons. And-
Drew Shulman:So foresight.
Marie Vigouroux:Yes, yes, that's true! You know, I sort of always see myself as like being like, in season 15. But it's true. We are in season one. So I need to get that straight. So thank you for bringing me back where we actually are,
Drew Shulman:I genuinely think it works in both ways. I just think it's kind of a funny observation at the moment.
Marie Vigouroux:All right. So this idea of like, I can never go home and the woman in white - because so the way that I read, the woman in white, as described in this episode, is a woman who has killed her children out of grief. And in this case, it was the grief of her relationship with her husband, right. So for whatever reason, she was very - she was grieving, and she killed her children as a result. Well, what we know of Mary is that, at some point in her life, before she has children, in a moment of extreme grief, she makes a decision that will change the course of, of her life and of everybody's life around her. So the woman in white kills her two children in a fit of grief. And to me, that sort of mirrors how Mary later feels, you know, she, she feels like Sam and Dean's lives were stolen from them, because of her actions. And that idea of not being able to go back home to her family, I think is like it just it's a call - I was gonna say call back, but like a call forward, I guess like foreshadowing then to what happens in much later seasons.
Drew Shulman:Oh, man, like, I can't wait to get to those moments. So we can like reflect on these now. And again, the advantage of watching them in a compressed times like we're doing now, it'll be really easy to like, make those connections. I'm to be like, oh, like, three years ago, in season one, it'll be like, a few weeks ago in season one.
Marie Vigouroux:I know!
Drew Shulman:One of the the advantages of watching a show like this. But oh, I'm very excited to see those kinds of connections. Because again, with my minimal knowledge of the show, from my first attempt of watching through it haphazardly, is, like most monster of the week shows a lot of episodes can be character development, and, you know, furthering the plot in its own way. But those really nice overarching tie ins of like, in these little like, points together with a little red string like you're doing right now, which makes me sound crazy if you're not. Although in this universe, it seems like a thing that would be happening anyways, that's a whole other story. It'll be nice to have those kinds of points. I'm looking forward to those episodes. Because as much as I can think of episodes I've enjoyed in the past, I can't really think of like, how they tied into the overarching story, besides just some themes and some development. I can't wait to find those moments of like really being able to draw like, oh, their story began here. And now we learn this about their mother or Oh, John's secret over here. Like, I can't wait to weave that web. Oh, my God.
Marie Vigouroux:Oh, yay! I'm so excited that I'm getting you excited about this! Woo! It's working!
Drew Shulman:Oh my God I'm so excited! So I feel like it's a good recap of the episode, a good recap of the brothers and where they are and the story points you wanted to bring up and their development. And I know you wanted to get a little more critical on the show.
Drew Shulman:Not necessarily every - I don't think we'll be going this deep, every episode. But as is the first episode, we want to look a little more at the world in which the show is being put together.
Marie Vigouroux:Yes, absolutely. So the goal is to sort of contextualize the episode a little bit. And you know, how we put a pin in the fact that this this is a TV show made by flawed human beings. Well, we're removing that pin now. And we're just sort of like letting that flood in and taking that very much into account. So in terms of contextualizing the show a little bit, we'll be able to dive into each episode and into this a little bit more with different - with the future episodes. But just to kind of give an idea and a reminder, also, especially for people who may not be super familiar with Supernatural, this show aired or began airing in 2005. So this first episode came out on September - on Friday, September 13, 2005. Now Drew, do you remember where you were in 2005?
Drew Shulman:That is 15 years ago, which means I would have been just shy of - I would have been just turning 16 a few weeks later. 15 years old, I can't remember is that - are you still in high school at 15?
Marie Vigouroux:Yes, you're still in high school at 15.
Drew Shulman:Wow. God, it shows my - I dropped out of school at a young age. So still. Yeah, I was in high school I was dating my first girlfriend at the time was I think she's the one who got me on to the show initially, but that's about all I can remember from 2005! My God!
Marie Vigouroux:And you know what? I think that's sort of my point, right? Like it's been a long time. This was obviously pre me-too pre- a lot of different reckonings about diversity that have happened since. And that is very visible, especially in the first few seasons. So there's definitely a lot of critique to be made a lot of observations to be made. But that's why I want to contextualize that this episode came out in 2005. Again, to give you an idea, you know, Jared Padalecki, who plays Sam was fresh out of Gilmore Girls where he plays a Dean obviously, which is why Drew is so so confused.
Drew Shulman:And I'm also a huge Gilmore Girls fan. It's one of the shows that I have probably watched through like Mary with Supernatural a number of times, I cannot recall how many times and I still go back to watch episodes when I need to pick me up. So I don't know how long it will take me up watching Supernatural or if we'll ever reach that point. But there will always be the itch in the back of my head to get Sam and Dean's names mixed up because of it.
Marie Vigouroux:That's - that's totally fine. I see. When I watch Gilmore Girls, I always find it weird that they call him Dean and I'm like that's not Dean, that's Sam!
Drew Shulman:Oh, two sides of the coin.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah, exactly. So yeah, so Jared felt like he was fresh out of Gilmore Girls and Jensen Ackles had already been on Dawson's Creek and Smallville amongst others, you know, we know that he got his start on Days of our Lives. So that's that's actually pretty cool. And in Smallville, just as a cool point of information or cool, so I think - he had originally auditioned for the role of Clark Kent.
Drew Shulman:Yeah, I couldn't see him as a Clark Kent type. I mean, again, knowing him mostly from Supernatural like it's always that like you You put a lot of like your thoughts of a character of a person on their ability to play a certain character you connect them with like, my favorite one to bring up is you think of Hugh Laurie as house and you forget that he was the father of Stuart Little like you could not be two more opposite characters and he doesn't well, but that's a whole other story.
Marie Vigouroux:Hugh Laurie was also man on plane in Friends.
Drew Shulman:Oh my god. Yes. I know the episode too! I can picture the episode. Oh, my God. We're getting away from ourselves.
Marie Vigouroux:Yes, Bringing it back.
Drew Shulman:Yes, please.
Marie Vigouroux:So we know that the that Supernatural plays on the CW right? Well, -
Drew Shulman:Which I feel is a channel that is kind of famous for shows of a certain nature.
Marie Vigouroux:Yes, absolutely. So I don't - see this is where like, I'm not a TV buff in that sense. So like, I don't know which show plays on what channel, what station etc. But I do know that at the time where this started, The CW didn't exist. It was the WB.
Drew Shulman:Oh, really? So it wasn't actually okay.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah. Right. So this is how far back we're going right. And again, like I said, we'll have a lot of time in future episodes to talk about Eric Kripke a little bit more. But just again, like as a way to introduce this originally, this was supposed to be a three season show. And that's why like, you'll see in the first seasons that the arc is so well defined, because this is really like what they had in mind.
Drew Shulman:I think that's something I even recall, when I did my first walkthrough, as I said, previously, I only made it so far in my watch through before. And when we get there, we'll discuss it more. It just put a taste in the mouth of like, I don't really love where the story is going. And I'm kind of getting detached from everything. And I'm hoping both our conversations and going in with a fresher outlook on the show, and also not having to do that whole Wait a week or whatever, two weeks for an episode to come out. might make it a lot easier to like swallow some of those less enjoyable moments. But it's true. Like I remember really, really enjoying the show up until an arbitrary point, I want to say season like the end of season four or the end of season three, where I was kind of just like, eh.
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah.
Drew Shulman:So you saying that it was meant to be three seasons. You know, I've seen other shows suffer with this where the show was really meant to be so many seasons. I mean, I think a famous example was a Parks and Recreation.
Marie Vigouroux:Speaking of other shows, let's make a quick list of the shows that debuted in 2005.
Drew Shulman:Yes, I see that you've included this in our show notes.
Marie Vigouroux:Yes.
Drew Shulman:I was reading it a bit. And I'm like shocked by some of them. But please go ahead.
Marie Vigouroux:Oh, I know. I know. Honestly, it's just like it reminds you of how far back this actually was right. Like I said Supernatural began on Friday, September 13, which is known in the fandom as Supernatural day. But other notable shows that debuted in 2005, are Medium who started on NBC now that's not a show that I watched, but I know that it was a big thing at the time. I know that the people who got into it got really into it. Like that's what I remember. You know, there's this little show called like Grey's Anatomy, I don't know if you've heard of it.
Drew Shulman:It rings a bell. I feel like I've seen an episode or two here and there. It's not still running is it?
Marie Vigouroux:but
Marie Vigouroux:It is actually I can't believe that Grey's Anatomy actually outlived Supernatural but they did. Grey's Anatomy's first few episodes started in early 2005. As we know, like the season - season one is a bit shorter than the rest of the seasons because they weren't sure that it was going to work. They were taking a chance on Shonda Rhimes. Can you imagine taking a chance on Shonda Rhimes?
Drew Shulman:Taking a chance on Shonda Rhimes?
Marie Vigouroux:Right? Anyway.
Drew Shulman:Oh my god.
Marie Vigouroux:Right.
Drew Shulman:Right. But I will admit you the non sarcasm this time the next show on your list? Wildfire?
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah!
Drew Shulman:No recollection.
Marie Vigouroux:So the reason why I put that here is because that was - the main character in that particular show then moves on to Supernatural. Wildfire on ABC Family and the rest - so I put it there specifically for Genevieve, who will move on to supernatural and end up marrying Jared Padalecki. So I feel like you know, again, because this is the Supernatural family. I had to include Wildfire. So while I didn't watch it, I also know that this is something that when Gen -
Drew Shulman:At least you heard of it!
Marie Vigouroux:I - Well, I heard of it only because of Genevieve right. So like whenever she came over to the show. I know that people were happy to see her. So there was like that. Maybe crossover in age, right? Where like people who were watching it like the kids who were watching Wildfire, then started watching Supernatural, like,
Drew Shulman:Okay, maybe that makes sense. Yeah, I can see that.
Marie Vigouroux:Another little show that started in 2005 is It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.
Drew Shulman:Which I also am shocked at how well that show is like I feel like I only really heard about in the last like five to seven years and like to know what's been going on since I was like in high school is shocking.
Marie Vigouroux:Well, I mean, it's a cult following for this one, right again, like, especially when shows have been on this long. The reason why they're still alive is really basically because the fans love it. So - then the next on my list is Prison Break and Bones who were both on Fox at the time. So I never really got into prison break. But again, I know that that was a huge thing. I really remember like the phenomenon. I liked Bones quite a bit.
Drew Shulman:Bones I tried to like and I just I think I got through most of the first season and I just I was like I feel like I'm forcing myself to watch this. But Prison Break too again, like I know the phenomenon. I just never jumped on it either.
Marie Vigouroux:The next one, though, How I Met Your Mother on CBS. Again, huge, huge popular success. It'd be interesting to rewatch it today to see how it aged.
Drew Shulman:Yeah, I feel like even watching it like when it was live. There were like, there things I can remember being like, Ooh, yeah, that didn't age well already.
Marie Vigouroux:I mean, just the character of Barney would have to be rewritten entirely today.
Drew Shulman:Yeah.
Marie Vigouroux:To be clear.
Drew Shulman:Yeah.
Marie Vigouroux:And then finally, I like to mention this one, because it's actually comparable ish in terms of like, horror content is Criminal Minds.
Drew Shulman:Which is another one too. I didn't I didn't follow up per se. But I really do like the show.
Marie Vigouroux:Same. You know what, like, I watched the first I think nine seasons, but then anyway, you know, like life happened. But -
Drew Shulman:Yeah, I think it was one of those shows that just like I liked it. I washed it quite freely with my mother of all people actually. And I think I just sort of fell off at some point.
Marie Vigouroux:Again, Criminal Minds. Now I can't remember from the research that I did. If it is, if it ended last year, or if it's ended. I know that they did 15 seasons as well. So that means that that show, and Supernatural, I think are similar in that sense, right? Like they both started at a very different time and yet still managed to keep a following important enough to survive through these like cultural awakenings that we've had in the past few years. So that was that's the context, I guess, of the show and where it started and everything.
Drew Shulman:Hopefully, we've set the scene for anyone who's joining the show as a new listener like myself, to kind of get an a mind space of where the world was when the show did air because again, as much as we do want to look at this separate from our world and the things that happen. We still want to hold it accountable for things like I've said I said it before in my recap, like this episode is a little on the chauvinistic side. I mean, we literally have I think a total of four - Wait 1-2-3-4-5 female characters in the entire episode. And two of them have virtually no lines and are killed. One is literally the villain who has again very few lines. The most talkative we get are the two exposition girls in the diner, explaining the ghost story and talking about her dead boyfriend.
Marie Vigouroux:Well, yes. So - yeah, you're right. I mean, this is frankly- and if I - if I'm just like being very honest and open about, you know, I love the show, I really do. But when I started watching it, I had a lot of trouble with a lot of that because it felt - it felt so behind right at the time that I was watching it. I started watching it about four years ago. And already it had been 11 years, right. And some of these things just seemed so out of place. Like you said, the fact that there are, you know, five female characters in this particular episode, and can you count the people of color also in that in that episode?
Drew Shulman:I think there's one Black cop.
Marie Vigouroux:There you go. So yeah, so I think that definitely the show was not aware or - No, I don't like to use that word. But there was definitely no effort made to remove a white supremacist undertone to it. Right. So that's definitely something.
Drew Shulman:Yeah, I don't I don't want it to come across that we're saying it's intentionally a very whitewashed cast. I think that's almost a byproduct of the way the industry really was at the time and is something we are seeing an active combat against now we are seeing a lot more call to arms of people of color, Indigenous people getting into roles and being cast properly. And I think this was just a matter of the time that -
Marie Vigouroux:Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's why that's why we have this particular segment, right to be able to discuss these things. And to have like, a true critical appraisal of what's happening in that particular show. And like you said, you know, a lot of these decisions are made by the network. Also, few of those decisions are actually made by the people writing the show. So anyway, and it would be easy to look at the - just the text, the you know, the script of the show and say, Oh, well, I would have done a different casting, which would be absolutely fair. But that decision didn't come to - it came to a very specific set of people who had a very specific agenda. And that shows.
Drew Shulman:Yeah, so I will look forward to as we get into later seasons, hopefully seeing more diversity in the casting, and being able to definitely talk to it when we get.
Marie Vigouroux:Perfect.
Drew Shulman:And I know that now that we've gone through our critical analysis a little bit, we have a voicemail from a fan of the show who wanted to voice her opinion as well.
Drew Shulman:This week's voicemail comes from Rachel Castellano, who wanted to share her impressions of the Pilot with us.
Rachel Castellano:Lawrence, 22 years ago, the start of it all. The inoculous timestamp on Winchester smiling face, calling out her famous pie lover's name: Dean. So much of Supernaturals mythology is centered around that moment around John, Mary, the boys. So much groundwork is set up in those first few minutes of Pilot. So little of what's to come is known to us at first watch. Expectedly Of course, those feelings of intrigue are clear. I vividly remember how enthralling the first episode of Supernatural was. I was drawn so deeply to the show's centerpieces, the Winchester boys: Sam and Dean. Watching the show as it first unfolded so many years ago now, provided me with such a sense of newness and awe. There was nothing like it back then. All that darkness, those rich undertones of family drama peeking through, you know, the ones that drive you to tune in every week because that's really what it's all about. All of it is set to a perfect backdrop of horror-esque elements. For those of us who love a good frisson. Those flickering lights in that opening scene, who's standing over Sam's crib? What happens to Mary? And then those little elements. The look on Dean's face as John tells him to take Sam and run. My heart breaks. Looking back now I'm still drawn to the narrative elements from that first episode. Full circles. Pilot begins with Mary pinned to a wall bursting into flame, ends with Jess meeting a similar fate. The nuances and the narrative threads that Kripke fleshes out over the course of the first season as he steadily builds his way to the finale of season five all start in Pilot. I love that most. Pilot as any show was still growing in its mythology. There are some funny incongruities with how the show later dealt with its demons, exorcisms, its own mythology really, but the bones are there enough so that it hooks you in to staying. It did back then. It does now when I can bring myself to rewatch Pilot of course. It promised me one hell of a ride. And did it ever deliver.
Drew Shulman:Wow, that was really beautiful. Thank you Rachel for being both our first voicemail and such a great one. I can really I can really connect you're right. I mean, both. However many years ago back when I was 15 years old seeing this for the first time and really getting kind of the claws into me, it really was a show that I saw myself going through and watching. As much as later on, I fell off the boat. This first episode really draws you in and coming back to it as I did this week, my first rewatch after 15 years, it really did it again, it reminded me why I wanted to watch it and you're right. And I really want to thank you again, for almost expressing what this entire episode was trying to be in such a beautiful, concise two minutes, maybe you'll give me some pointers for my next recap.
Marie Vigouroux:Ah, Rachel, thank you so much for this beautiful voicemail, I totally understand what you say when you're - what you mean, when you say that you don't watch rewatch the Pilot, often, I have to say that whenever I do a rewatch, I'll tend to skip over the pilot, because it's just so painful, especially when we know what happens later. And the sacrifice that the brothers have to actually, you know, carry on with. So I definitely related to that. Thank you, thank you so much for sharing.
Drew Shulman:I'm so excited to get to a point where I feel the same way about the pilot as well. But I'm so intrigued to see how we get there. Obviously, we are going to encourage any listeners of the show to reach out to us at the end of the show. We will give the email and all the information you need. But you can definitely send in your thoughts whether they be about the series a whole a specific episode. Either you've just watched or one coming up, we are happy to hear any and all from any of our fans. And I will because so many shows do this. And I always want to drive the point home, in your emails, let us know what name to use for you whether it's your full name and nickname or just part of your name, and your pronouns.
Marie Vigouroux:Yes. And also, if there's any feedback that you'd like to send us about our show this particular episode or any future ones, please feel free.
Drew Shulman:Mary actually presented this idea to us was one of the first ideas I think we really had solidified when we thought it when the show was presented to me by her. And I love the idea of - even from my minimal viewing of the show, I know that a common thread throughout the series is making a deal with the devil or at the crossroads. So we thought every episode would be fun to end it both as a little sign off for the show, but also as a kind of talking point for the listeners to think of their own and you can share them with us on social media, what would be your deal at the crossroads for this episode? So, Mary, would you like to go first?
Marie Vigouroux:Yes. Um, so this one is a tough one, because you can't make a deal to change too much, right? Because otherwise, the story doesn't happen. So I am going to go super controversial, like, super controversial, and say that I would give up John living and ask for - and wish for Mary to stay alive.
Drew Shulman:But still filling the same rules they currently do fell within the series, essentially.
Marie Vigouroux:I mean, we would see how that would go, right? Because we can't like I can't put conditions on the deal. Right. So my deal would be that in that moment that night, you know, in Lawrence, that John actually dies in the bedroom and Mary lives. And that would be my Crossroads deal for this one.
Drew Shulman:I like that it's very overarching. It's very big and opened up a lot of possible questions. But I think it goes to a point that I - we both drove home a little bit earlier is it might help the diversification of the casting having a prominent female character much earlier on in the series. I know we do get a few female characters who become a little more prominent later if I'm not mistaken.
Marie Vigouroux:Yes.
Drew Shulman:But it would help earlier on.
Marie Vigouroux:Yes. What about you Drew?
Drew Shulman:Coming in a little more blind it's a tough one. I, again, it's a deal with the devil, there's always has to be a downside to this. So it's hard to say. But I think for me my favorite part of the show, the thing that drove me into it and I know hopefully, we will get more into the overarching story and help me love it there. I love the monster of the week, I think I would have loved to have found a way to develop the spirit more, how she became where she was kind of disambigu-ify if that's even a word, how she became so torn in her marriage that led to the killing of her children and why facing her children was the thing that like you know, took her away like a lot of it is filling in the blanks and kind of like figuring out yourself, but if we could have - I feel like we had to give up on some of that to get more of the pilot in. I would have loved to have maybe seen - leave more mystery, which we can then figure out later on in the series about the brothers and their history and their their life in order to get more of the monster this week.
Marie Vigouroux:Okay, so you would give up a little bit of the overarching story in this particular episode in order to get more maybe concrete lore about this particular spirit.
Drew Shulman:Yes, again, a great example of someone taking my Flubaroo for five minutes and making it a concise. Thank you. You and Rachel complemented me immensely.
Marie Vigouroux:Oh, well, we're happy to.
Drew Shulman:So again, we do want to reach out to any of our listeners and invite you to let us know what deal you would make if you agree or disagree or have an interesting point based on the deals we have chosen to make as well as any other thoughts or feedback you can offer us but Mary, I think that brings us to the end of our first episode.
Marie Vigouroux:Absolutely.
Drew Shulman:You've been listening to Carrying Wayward a Supernatural podcast produced by Rachel Castellano. Hosted by Marie Vigouroux and myself Drew Shulman. Subscribe on Spotify or Apple Music for weekly content including special episodes. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at @carryingwayward and feel free to send us a voicemail at carryingwayward@gmail.com This week we'd like to thank Rachel for her voicemail. Until next week!
Marie Vigouroux:Carry on or wayward friends!
